anyone here on AWBW?i

i saw ren hitaro on AWBW, any of you have an account there for some games maybe?

My answer is no. The metagame is imbalanced anyway, favoring boring old infantry+indirect spam. I know one user who has quit over the cheapness too.

Somebody else around here may still be going to AWBW though.

Yeah, me. XD

I think everyone else here quit though. Idk.

Ren Hitaro wrote:

I think everyone else here quit though. Idk.

I did have one but... I dont remember the password to mine.
Ren's right though. I think everyone else quit.

Master Knight DH wrote:

My answer is no. The metagame is imbalanced anyway, favoring boring old infantry+indirect spam. I know one user who has quit over the cheapness too.

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i would like you to explain this point please, also DoR=infantry + artillery, and infantry +artillery spam is dependant on the map, imbalance maybe cuz you played on a non-symmetric map or one with FTA-STA -reckon rush or CO-friendly issues i don´t really get the concepts of "metagame"(since i limit myself to play and win) and cheapness, care to explain?

Let me elaborate:

*You need to spend more money than the guy who builds an Infantry and an Artillery alone to build an AA Tank, the cheapest unit that can OHK a lone Infantry on Roads.
*Obviously, there will be a good deal more money available than just 7500G. So they will have any number of Infantry and covered Artillery. And of course they have reserves.
*Infantry are needed to have properties in the first place. You can't tell me the spammer won't have them anyway.
*The cheapest unit capable of OHKing the Artillery on Road is the MB Tank in Dual Strike or the Battlestation (War Tank) in Days of Ruin, at 16000G. That's too much money to get a preemptive strike on it, which you desperately need against it; or to zap ALL of the Artillery that will be around after the setup.
*If you try to attack an infantry, you spend the liberty used, and it's VERY likely you get only that one liberty to strike at the same infantry. So you have to OHK it. Good luck.
*Of course, the units that attacked get nixed by the Artillery.
*Meanwhile, the Artillery sit in the backlines, so you'll have trouble reaching all of them in the first place.
*Days of Ruin takes this to disgusting degrees. Infantry cost more, but Mechs, which can be used to further punish vehicles, cost less now, and Bikers have been added with no notable weakness barring terrain.
*And of course if you don't fight this, you lose the center properties. If you do fight this, as indicated above, you end up with nothing to prevent the opponent from making you lose the center properties anyway. Without the center properties, you'll lose because you can build nothing but Mechs while drowning in spammed Bombers.

Makes me wish Rondo of Swords's Route Maneuver System could be fit into AW.

A lot if most of the maps on AWBW are Symmetrical and have FTA Balance. But a lot are user made. Recon rush doesnt always work. You can ban certain CO's if you really want to in AWBW or you can turn off powers all together and just play your favorite.

Also whats with the sudden talk about Days of Ruin? AWBW only uses Duel Strike rule set and CO's.

EDIT due to MKDH post:
That is using a co with no CO bonus like Andy right?

The reason I'm not into AWBW is the load times can get very long later in each game when a lot of units/buildings are thrown around. And the game has to re-load EVERY TIME YOU MAKE A MOVE!

Also, any map you make instantly gets shot down by "GR!T FR!3DLY!!!1!" and "FTA FTL!!!1!".

Speaking of FTA, I'm not even sure if FTA is as bad as we thought. I'd rather suck it and play Blue's position with a turn order disadvantage than argue about whether a map needs a game-breaking infantry pre-deployed. Yes, I have seen maps where the pre-deployed infantry gives Orange Star the win.

Ephraim225 wrote:

The reason I'm not into AWBW is the load times can get very long later in each game when a lot of units/buildings are thrown around. And the game has to re-load EVERY TIME YOU MAKE A MOVE!

If it was me I be more worried about how long it takes for the other player to make a move. It could take days for a player to make a move or even months depending on the player.

I don't think it matters if DoR is talked about anyway. To me at least, it basically has the same metagame anyway.

Response to SGD's edit: yeah. But it doesn't change much. At least in DoR you get the MB Tank, but it still needs luck damage or a MAJOR boost to kill the Artillery. Especially CO-boosted Artillery not even having to be controlled by Brenner. I'm not sure it's worth the 12000G.

Master Knight DH wrote:

I don't think it matters if DoR is talked about anyway. To me at least, it basically has the same metagame anyway.

Response to SGD's edit: yeah. But it doesn't change much. At least in DoR you get the MB Tank, but it still needs luck damage or a MAJOR boost to kill the Artillery. Especially CO-boosted Artillery not even having to be controlled by Brenner. I'm not sure it's worth the 12000G.

................WTF HOW DID DoR COME INTO THE CONVO?

Master Knight DH wrote:

Let me elaborate:

*You need to spend more money than the guy who builds an Infantry and an Artillery alone to build an AA Tank, the cheapest unit that can OHK a lone Infantry on Roads.
.

so you build something to kill the meatshields and then killed completeyl? 8000K can be used for 2inf + arty...something that would be the same strategy as the opponent, the best way to counter a meatshielded arty-tank advance is with another one, of course placing your units better

Master Knight DH wrote:

*Infantry are needed to have properties in the first place. You can't tell me the spammer won't have them anyway.
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don´t you have them too? why don´t you make your own inf+arty front? after all , if you have a good meatshielding and proper placement of units(better or equal than your opponent) he may well stay where he is making little damage while buidling a stronger army, or advance to you and meet his doom, you make it sounds like you use MD,neos, and megas to counter inf+arty,

Master Knight DH wrote:

*The cheapest unit capable of OHKing the Artillery on Road is the MB Tank in Dual Strike or the Battlestation (War Tank) in Days of Ruin, at 16000G. That's too much money to get a preemptive strike on it, which you desperately need against it; or to zap ALL of the Artillery that will be around after the setup.
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simple as this, war tanks-megatank(Dual strike) are useless,in every point of the word,they are useless, to OHKO an arty with a MD like you say, first you need to rush into the meatwalls(infantry) with posibly other units, also the MD is a bit weak in certain heavy terrained maps, where a tank spam is more efficitent, in fact, tanks are better than MD in a cost-effective status

Master Knight DH wrote:

*If you try to attack an infantry, you spend the liberty used, and it's VERY likely you get only that one liberty to strike at the same infantry. So you have to OHK it. Good luck.
.

don´t expect to OHKO every units you see, that´s why you need your own indirects, to attack more than once

Master Knight DH wrote:

*Meanwhile, the Artillery sit in the backlines, so you'll have trouble reaching all of them in the first place.

if you have a strong front army, nad it´s supposed you have to rush in, obviously you´re not goona try to beat a 4 infa+ 3arty wall with 4 tanks of yours

Master Knight DH wrote:

*And of course if you don't fight this, you lose the center properties. If you do fight this, as indicated above, you end up with nothing to prevent the opponent from making you lose the center properties anyway. Without the center properties, you'll lose because you can build nothing but Mechs while drowning in spammed Bombers.

what i understand here is that you´re opponent has the advantage of the inf+arty spam from the start, of course if your opponent start with advantage form the start don´texpect to win,but then again,if your oppoent does the inf+arty spam, why can´t you do the same but sooner?

you make it all sound like you counter indirects with directs,


SGD: most good maps in AWBW are symmetrical and are balanced, reckon rushes are made when the third-foruth-whatever base form the oppoent can be prevented from being captured in the early game with quick reckon, mostly being maps with lots of roads or playing as sturm

Ephraim225: yeah id o agree the reloading of the map is quite anoying sometime when the server is slow, but it´s not as it takes forever, also it´s a shame our some of our people on AWBW only comments are crappy, most of them are noobz that think a bit of experience makes them capable of flaming other new people, of course i point out any FTA problems but try to give a possible solution for it as well,luckily our new map searching engine display prevents noobz from saying stupid things anymore, andlcukily, most of thema re good comments nowadays and yes, FTA is as bad as it sounds, 8 moths of playing and 7 years of the AWBW people say a yes to this

Master Knight DH wrote:

don´t expect to OHKO every units you see, that´s why you need your own indirects, to attack more than once
They aren't moving their freaking Infantry into any of my Artillery. They're turtling. That's the whole point of the strategy.

the first one to move his units in the range of the other is pron to lose, if he don´t put any of his on your range, force him to, menacing the opponent on capturing exposed properties or simple using and terrain at favor with more units(indirects whatever way to force him to) to actually lure him on you, any battle will actually end on one of the two trying to rush on the other, unless the map has a hell of a damn chokepoint

Master Knight DH wrote:

if you have a strong front army, nad it´s supposed you have to rush in, obviously you´re not goona try to beat a 4 infa+ 3arty wall with 4 tanks of yours
The Artillery actually gets to the battlefield fast enough. And infantry would already be near the battlefield because the spammer has them already from getting properties.

actually this point is true, then again, if he has his infatry near the center(or front) by that time, why wouldn´t you have yours in time to counter them? your artillery should be the same time as his, a balanced army of inf+arty+tank is needed actually arty+inf is weak in some cases of open maps, about a 50-60%of you units should be infantry, infantry is by far the best unit in the game, the rest is left for tank and arty, NOT JUST ARTY..

Master Knight DH wrote:

what i understand here is that you´re opponent has the advantage of the inf+arty spam from the start, of course if your opponent start with advantage form the start don´texpect to win,but then again,if your oppoent does the inf+arty spam, why can´t you do the same but sooner?
I would be trying to beat the infantry+indirect spam, not create a stalemate.

even then, a tank spam is not the right way of countering an inf+arty one, on a side note, bombers aren´t that good, they are pron to be like MD tanks, bombers are situational, as already said no map ends in stalemate unless the two have a freaking same strategy and skill, or the map is likely to be a stalemate, like the mentioned above big chokepoint, and if that´s the case of the map, then the map is not good, so don´t blame the AWBW to be imbalanced for a map and not rather a generalization of all

Master Knight DH wrote:

you make it all sound like you counter indirects with directs,
You should be able to. I play a game to have fun, not to get turtled to death.

i have seen this last argument many times, and not i already said, depending ont he map a 5-6 tile path is likely to be indirect+inf>direct a wide open 10-18 tiles map is direct+inf>indirect+inf...

actually the lifeblood of AW is the infantry, any player that don´t make good use of infa is going to lose, being as spammy as it may sound, infantry must be spammed in whatever case..and of course if the game gets turtled(which i think you mean "stalemate" or something like that) it´s for the reason of the hellish chokepoint or becasue none of the both players might want to end it, actuallty there is always a point where you may have better units in better placement, you use that to try to take out the enmy in one shot, but from the good players i fought there, none of them stalled the game until seeing who had more units that the other


on another side note: sturm is broken on heavy terrained maps, grit, kanbei ,colin,hachi and sensei are broken one every map you may encounter being as this :
grit>kanbei>colin>sensei>hachi..so no wonder if you lost agains any of this COs using any other CO aside form these

*sigh* Since I don't feel like arguing the individual points out right now, especially already being upset by how vile the opposite sex is by being freaking biased, I'll just show an image to make this simple:



That's Day 14 of a competitive battle. Tell me the damn wall isn't broken.

Master Knight DH wrote:

*sigh* Since I don't feel like arguing the individual points out right now, especially already being upset by how vile the opposite sex is by being freaking biased, I'll just show an image to make this simple:



That's Day 14 of a competitive battle. Tell me the damn wall isn't broken.

dood, first of all that map is not symmetric
and it seems to me OS is winning..OS may actually just has to advance a bit further on the north while holding the south and win...
BM just played badly it seems...why the heck do you want AAs when there is only one copter?
it looks to me OS made a stable barrier and BM just couldn´t(or didn´t want to think really good) on making another one good, but it all is dependant on the map, seeing as it is non-symmetric, you CAN¨T ask for fairness on any map like that, BM just let OS get over them without making any resistance of course, you are afraid of the damn wall of things, but BM let it get build in the first place, you can´t blame strategies, just the player, if a strategy let´s you iwn, ther eis nothing wrong with that, and if you can´t devise a better then i suggest you practice more
seeing the map OS north base is better positioned for rushing the north, msot properties seem closer to OS so you can´t really blame that an strategy is broken, the map is just unfair, and what you are agruing about, that inf+arty is broken and there is no way fo breaking through , woudln´t be any different if i just say that a MD tank is unfair because it´s more powerful than a tank, you just have to device your own strategy, being it copying the arty+inf and deploy them more inteligently, much people i know use the same or similar strategy, and there is always a winner, right now i can´t blame BM for losing,OS has aeveything at it´s favor, but if in a SYMMETRIC map, you lose, it´s becasue your opponent played better than you

also you said using the same strategy would stalemate, i think it´s better to set draw than to lose

My thoughts are in Bold.

airob wrote:

Master Knight DH wrote:

*sigh* Since I don't feel like arguing the individual points out right now, especially already being upset by how vile the opposite sex is by being freaking biased, I'll just show an image to make this simple:



That's Day 14 of a competitive battle. Tell me the damn wall isn't broken.

dood, first of all that map is not symmetric
A map doesn't need to be symmetric to be a fair game.

and it seems to me OS is winning..OS may actually just has to advance a bit further on the north while holding the south and win...
BM just played badly it seems...why the heck do you want AAs when there is only one copter?
So you can KILL the copter, maybe? AAs are very good against infantry as well. Too bad they cost 8000.

it looks to me OS made a stable barrier and BM just couldn´t(or didn´t want to think really good) on making another one good, but it all is dependant on the map, seeing as it is non-symmetric, you CAN¨T ask for fairness on any map like that, BM just let OS get over them without making any resistance of course, you are afraid of the damn wall of things, but BM let it get build in the first place, you can´t blame strategies, just the player, if a strategy let´s you iwn, ther eis nothing wrong with that, and if you can´t devise a better then i suggest you practice more
You didn't see the entire battle up to this point. Heck, nobody did.

seeing the map OS north base is better positioned for rushing the north, msot properties seem closer to OS so you can´t really blame that an strategy is broken, the map is just unfair, and what you are agruing about, that inf+arty is broken and there is no way fo breaking through , woudln´t be any different if i just say that a MD tank is unfair because it´s more powerful than a tank, you just have to device your own strategy, being it copying the arty+inf and deploy them more inteligently, much people i know use the same or similar strategy, and there is always a winner, right now i can´t blame BM for losing,OS has aeveything at it´s favor, but if in a SYMMETRIC map, you lose, it´s becasue your opponent played better than you
First of all there's a BM base in the north - an OS infantry is capturing it. Second, on a perfectly symmetrical map, FTA exists. At least, that's what everyone accepts.

also you said using the same strategy would stalemate, i think it´s better to set draw than to lose

At that last line.

symmetric maps are more fair, and on a non-symmetrical there is always.always , a bit of terrain advantage, of course, non-symmetric may be fair in some very well elaborated maps, but this is not the case,simple as that, and i do saw that base captured by OS,even so, OS has his base more close to most of the cities on the north side, two AAs for a copter? cool.
yeah nobody did see the battle, then it´s one of two:
or BM played badly, or the map has terrain advantage for OS
on a perfectly symmetric and GOOD map, there is an FTA counter to the best point possible

So OS has an advantage geometrically. Fine.

Doesn't exactly erase that giant infantry+indirect wall there.

BM won't get past it. If BM attacks directly the indirects'll just shoot them. Standing still means OS gets closer.

you can´t expect an advantage of one army over the other being it of terrain FTA or any other thing, and want it to win...in fac that arty+inf wall by OS isn´t well made, it can be pierced with two lines of infantry from BM,infantry is best countered wit infantry,i have broken barrier such as those, and 4 artilleries with three more infantry than those there would do much more thna that, infantyr must always be 3-1 on arties

airob, let me tell you: AW communities in general would just tear your points apart. Of course, I can't think of a solution within the basic AW framework that wouldn't just make something else, although likely better to put up with than the infantry spam, broken. Tank spamming became an issue for Custom Wars when their anti-infantry damage was toned way up, because there's few land units that can even damage tanks to begin with, on top of their own mobility and firepower.

probably, that last post wasn´t well elaborated(my post) and i think it had some explication not needed..simply put...
symmetryc= more fair, and easier to balance(of course with FTA counter)
inf+artspam= the most common strategy, not only art though..they do have tanks..i would like you to check one game on awbw
http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=95146

those two are simply the best players on awbw.....
and i assure the game won´t end in a draw, if one army is too dumb to not make a correct strategy or counter it with a similar one, don´t expect it to win....don´t expect BM to win that game with so few and bad units(looking at the situation) also as you said no one said the entire game...it´s most probably BM did an art+inf spam, just that it was badly placed...

I predict Benbever is going to lose that game, and he'll certainly be set back on the south front. Why? Because Ultrastorm has Lightning Strike ready, and Benbever doesn't have the necessary forces to break through. Even if he could touch the Artillery, he doesn't have the necessary forces to damage plenty of them. Which is another thing: that's another reason why there should be MORE explosive round units like GBW3's Humvee. Mechs get shot at, indirects can't move and attack on the same turn (to say nothing of the fact that you're just fighting fire with fire--in a strategy game, which is like a lastborn NOT using manipulation to shake off opposition, especially annoying older siblings), and tanks short of a War Tank (MB Tank in the first 3 AWs) or better--shut down by being too expensive--can't OHK Artillery without broken attack boosts anyway. Let me look on the damage chart in case I missed something.

...what the? AA Tanks deal 50% to Artillery. That's a surprise. Of course, you need them to KILL THE INFANTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE! And you already couldn't OHK Artillery--which you need to do to beat the flood--with Light Tanks, and you expect it to be different with MORE AA Tanks? The AA Tanks just get zapped by the back Artillery.

agree with your point there about AAs and all that....except that using AAs for countering infspam is considered suicide on AWBW
now, toleav this clear...the art+inf spam is a common strategy on awbw...benbever is nearly the best inf+art spammer, the basics are that when you spot your opponent trying to massive if+art spam...you can:
1-try to press an offensive on little fronts to try to draw the enemy´s closest units hoefully shattering their army and killing some units...most maps tend to force the player on dividing the army..since most good maps are made of 2-4 fronts...whilst that example image you gave me there has just one open front...while the onorth one is just too movement hindering for tanks..making art a suitable choice....when there is one open front on the map...and the opponent is making an artinf spam..BM could have attacked or at least countered with the same, but better placed strategy.....howeveryou dont know if BM stupidly attacked inf with tanks or AAs letting them be easy prey for the arts....
2-counter with the same strategy...but makeyours better..yes that´s right...counter fire with fire....it works often if you place your units better than your opponent...on a side note: the screenshot you showed me was for a map suitable for art+spam....
what i try to emphasise is that the almighty art+ inf strategy is not unbeatable...you just need to act quickly but if you let your opponent make a vast number of those...and you haven´t...don´t blame the strategy being broken....

I imagine AA Tank spam gets thwarted by throwing in an occasional Lite Tank. What's it matter that you lose the Lite Tank to THEIR OWN occasional Lite Tank, you leave the opposition with one less AA Tank to threaten your infantry.

....wait. You may not even need the occasional Lite Tank. There's probably simply too many Artillery for the AA Tank to kill.

Strategy #1 might work, but more money is spent on tanks than on Artillery. Tanks have to be really careful or they will get trashed or simply become unable to attack effectively.

Strategy #2 is just a war of attrition. Let me tell you right now: it doesn't work. Not in real life, and certainly not in a strategy game. And I know this from experience. That's why a game needs to have healthy variety: so that one player doesn't hog all the wins.

i´ve had enough time on awbw(like a year, a bit more) to tell that countering with the same strategy works...to tell the truth..no one on awbw (good players of course) is ever going to send a tank sole swarm..neither an arty sole swarm(the last one may be spotted, but very rarely..and only in heavy chokey maps, maps that don´t get on awbw standars, then again..most good players prefer to fight over in an A-rank map than a noob one)...as i said...a balanced army of tans-arts-infs-AA is going to let you win..not just arty..that´s for sure...yes arty gives a protected range from rushing units..but a tank can cover terrain faster(not just their extra movement..i mean cover terrain fater due that an arty needs meatshielding in early turns, that´s likely to be inf, that moves 3...while a tank doesn´t until the opponent makes a tank) there was athread on awbw forums about what´s the best starting offensive unit
tank = arty?
most people agreed on that building a tank first is better, there are even players that specialize on arty(arty spammer) or tanks(tank spammer) though don´t confuse it...don´t think that becasue they are called "tank spammer" they will just build direct units...it mean they start their game with tanks...and make arty whilst it advances...now i think u misunderstood the first strategy..i meant dispersing the army but not only with tanks..i mean a full divided army,like luring some fo your opponents units with a small tank-inf-arty arrangement, of course you can´t count with the opponent being that stupid..so it´s bs to try to lure the enemy to critical property areas,
you can cheks this map:
http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=37505
in this map...it´s totally best open with tanks, and keep with them for early turns...artilleries are not spammed either...

I do awbw often.