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 Hmm...unit ranges. (Long lists)

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PostSubject: Hmm...unit ranges. (Long lists)   Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:02 am

I was thinking about unit ranges because of GBW3 indirects. I'm going to put up a table of maximum attack ranges (not simply the weapon ranges, the attack ranges including Movement Power).

*Famicom Wars
-Infantry - 3 + 1 = 4
-Mech - 2 + 1 = 3
-Tank A - 6 + 1 = 7
-Tank B - 5 + 1 = 6 (yes, Tank B has lower Movement Power despite being smaller; most likely to make sure it can't cross Rivers while the Tank A can, most likely due to the Famicom's primitive tech)
-APC - 6 + 1 = 7 (yes, APC here can cross Rivers)
-Artillery A - 4 * 0 + 5 = 5
-Artillery B - 5 * 0 + 3 = 3
-AA Missile Launcher - 4 * 0 + 5 = 5
-AA Gun - 5 + 1 = 6
-Fighter (both A and B) - 10 + 1 = 11
-Bomber - 8 + 1 = 9
-Transport Helicopter - 6 + 1 = 7
-Battleship - 6 * 0 + 5 = 5
-Lander - 5 + 1 = 6

*Game Boy Wars 1/2/Turbo
-Infantry - 3 + 1 = 4
-Mech - 2 + 1 = 3
-Tank A - 6 + 1 = 7
-Tank B - 4 + 1 = 5 (the river explanation doesn't cover the lower Movement Power, so I have no idea)
-Tank Z (direct fire) - 4 + 1 = 5
-Tank Z (range fire) - 4 * 0 + 3 = 3 (mercifully, it can't be built)
-Battery - 1 * 0 + 6 = 6
-Artillery A - 4 * 0 + 5 = 5
-Artillery B - 4 * 0 + 3 = 3
-Rocket Launcher - 4 * 0 + 3 = 3
-AA Missile Launcher - 4 * 0 + 5 = 5
-AA Gun - 5 + 1 = 6
-APC - 6 + 1 = 7
-Fighter A - 9 + 1 = 10
-Fighter B - 8 + 1 = 9
-Bomber - 7 + 1 = 8
-Battle Helicopter - 5 + 1 = 6
-Transport Helicopter - 6 + 1 = 7
-Super Missile (explosion) - 8 + 3 = 11 (like the Tank Z, it's not normally deployable--but watch out for them on final maps all the same, they OHK everything within weapon range upon explosion and have any defense worth mentioning as opposed to the Black Bomb, though at least you could use Fighter Bs to deter its usage)
-Battleship - 5 * 0 + 6 = 6
-Aircraft Carrier - 5 * 0 + 6 = 6
-Lander - 5 + 1 = 6
-Submarine (direct fire) - 4 + 1 = 5
-Submarine (range fire) - 4 * 0 + 3 = 3

*Super Famicom Wars
-Infantry - 3 + 1 = 4
-Mech - 2 + 1 = 3
-Small Tank (and New Model Tank) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Medium Tank - 5 + 1 = 6
-Large Tank - 4 + 1 = 5
-Recon - 8 + 1 = 9
-APC - 6 + 1 = 7
-AA Tank - 6 + 1 = 7
-Artillery (and AA Artillery) - 4 * 0 + 3 = 3
-Rocket Launcher (and AA Missile Launcher) - 4 * 0 + 5 = 5
-Train Gun (Cannon) - 15 * 0 + 6 = 6
-Train Gun (Machine Gun) - 15 + 1 = 16 (now thank God its mobility is restricted to railroads)
-Fighter - 9 + 1 = 10
-Attacker - 8 + 1 = 9
-Bomber - 7 + 1 = 8
-Battle Helicopter - 6 + 1 = 7
-Battleship (Cannon) - 5 * 0 + 6 = 6
-Battleship (lousy Machine Gun) - 5 + 1 = 6
-Cruiser - 6 + 1 = 7
-Submarine - 4 + 1 = 5

*Game Boy Wars 3
-Infantry (no transport) - 3 + 1 = 4
-Infantry (Transport Truck) - 7 (Transport Truck) + 3 + 1 = 11
-Infantry (Transport Truck in Transport Plane) - 8 (Transport Plane) + 7 + 3 + 1 = 19 (!!)
-Mech (no transport) - 2 + 2 = 4
-Mech (Transport Truck) - 7 + 2 + 2 = 11
-Mech (Transport Truck in Transport Plane) - 8 + 7 + 2 + 2 = 19 (!!!!)
-Commando (no transport) - 4 + 1 = 5
-Commando (Transport Truck) - 7 + 4 + 1 = 12
-Commando (Transport Truck in Transport Plane) - 8 + 7 + 4 + 1 = 20
-Constructor (no transport) - 5 + 1 = 6
-Constructor (Transport Plane) - 8 + 5 + 1 = 14
-Transport Truck, regular and S (no transport) - 7 + 1 = 8
-Transport Truck, regular and S (Transport Plane) - 8 + 7 + 1 = 16
-Combat Buggy, regular and S (no transport) - 7 + 1 = 8
-Combat Buggy, regular and S (Transport Plane) - 8 + 7 + 1 = 16
-Battle Car (no transport) - 7 + 1 = 8
-Battle Car (Transport Plane) - 8 + 7 + 1 = 16
-Battle Car S (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Battle Car S (Transport Plane) - 8 + 6 + 1 = 15
-APC, regular and S (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-APC, regular and S (Lander) - 4 (Lander) + 6 + 1 = 11
-IFV (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-IFV (Lander) - 4 (Lander) + 6 + 1 = 11
-IFV S (no transport) - 6 + 2 = 8
-IFV S (Lander) - 4 (Lander) + 6 + 2 = 12
-Artillery (no transport) - 4 + 5 = 9
-Artillery (Lander) - 4 + 4 + 5 = 13
-Artillery S (no transport) - 3 + 6 = 9
-Artillery S (Lander) - 4 + 3 + 6 = 13
-Rocket Launcher (no transport) - 5 + 3 = 8
-Rocket Launcher (Lander) - 4 + 5 + 3 = 12
-Rocket Launcher S (no transport) - 4 + 4 = 8
-Rocket Launcher S (Lander) - 4 + 4 + 4 = 12
-AA Missile Launcher (no transport) - 5 + 3 = 8
-AA Missile Launcher (Lander) - 4 + 5 + 3 = 12
-AA Missile Launcher S (no transport) - 4 + 6 = 10
-AA Missile Launcher S (Lander) - 4 + 4 + 6 = 14
-AA Tank (no transport) - 5 + 1 = 6
-AA Tank (Lander) - 4 + 5 + 1 = 10
-Mercenary AA Tank (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Mercenary AA Tank (Lander) - 4 + 6 + 1 = 11
-Tank Destroyer (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Tank Destroyer (Lander) - 4 + 6 + 1 = 11
-Tank Destroyer S (no transport) - 6 + 2 = 8
-Tank Destroyer S (Lander) - 4 + 6 + 2 = 12
-Main Battle Tank (no transport) - 5 + 1 = 6
-Main Battle Tank (Lander) - 4 + 5 + 1 = 10
-Mercenary Main Battle Tank (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Mercenary Main Battle Tank (Lander) - 4 + 6 + 1 = 11
-Fighter A (no transport) - 12 + 1 = 13
-Fighter A (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 12 + 1 = 19
-Fighter B (no transport) - 11 + 1 = 12
-Fighter S (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 11 + 1 = 18
-Fighter S (no transport) - 13 + 5 = 18
-Fighter S (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 13 + 5 = 24 (HOLY ****)
-Attacker A (no transport) - 11 + 1 = 12
-Attacker A (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 11 + 1 = 18
-Attacker B (no transport) - 9 + 1 = 10
-Attacker B (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 9 + 1 = 16
-Attacker S (no transport) - 10 + 1 = 11 (and by the way, this unit is not halted by enemy ZoC, although combat effects of ZoC still apply)
-Attacker S (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 10 + 1 = 17
-Strategic Bomber (bombing) - 10 + 0 + 1 = 11
-Mercenary Strategic Bomber (bombing) - 11 + 0 + 1 = 12 (again, not halted by ZoC)
-Battle Helicopter (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Battle Helicopter (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 6 + 1 = 13
-Battle Helicopter S (no transport) - 7 + 2 = 9
-Battle Helicopter S (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 7 + 2 = 15
-Anti-Sea Helicopter (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Anti-Sea Helicopter (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 6 + 1 = 13
-Transport Helicopter (no transport) - 7 + 1 = 8
-Transport Helicopter (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 7 + 1 = 14
-Transport Helicopter S (no transport) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Transport Helicopter S (Small Aircraft Carrier) - 6 + 6 + 1 = 13
-Aegis Warship (anti-ship) - 6 + 7 = 13
-Aegis Warship (anti-air) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Mercenary Missile Frigate (anti-air) - 7 + 6 = 13
-Mercenary Missile Frigate (bombing) - 7 + 7 + 1 = 15
-Large Aircraft Carrier (anti-air) - 5 + 6 = 11
-Large Aircraft Carrier (defense guns) - 5 + 1 = 6
-Small Aircraft Carrier (anti-air) - 6 + 3 = 9
-Small Aircraft Carrier (defense guns) - 6 + 1 = 7
-Lander - 4 + 1 = 5
-Submarine - 4 + 4 = 8
-Submarine S (torpedoes) - 5 + 1 = 6
-Submarine S (bombing) - 5 + 7 + 1 = 13

*Advance Wars (including DS)
-Infantry - 3 + 1 = 4
-Mech - 2 + 1 = 3
-Small Tank - 6 + 1 = 7
-Large Tank - 5 + 1 = 6
-Mega Tank - 4 + 1 = 5
-Neo Tank - 6 + 1 = 7
-Recon - 8 + 1 = 9
-AA Tank - 6 + 1 = 7
-Artillery - 5 * 0 + 3 = 3
-Rocket Launcher - 5 * 0 + 5 = 5
-AA Missile Launcher - 4 * 0 + 5 = 5
-Piperunner - 9 * 0 + 5 = 5
-Hell-Lium - 1 + 0 = 1
-Fighter - 9 + 1 = 10
-Bomber - 7 + 1 = 8
-Stealth - 6 + 1 = 7
-Black Bomb (explosion) - 9 + 3 = 12 (tell me it's not broken now)
-Battle Helicopter - 6 + 1 = 7
-Battleship - 5 * 0 + 6 = 6
-Aircraft Carrier - 5 * 0 + 8 = 8
-Cruiser - 6 + 1 = 7 (how is it not overpowered in AWDS?)
-Submarine - 5 + 1 = 6


Okay, so here's the things to note:
*Non-GBW3:
-Most land or sea units have a maximum range of no more than 7. Those with that much are always direct-fire. Yes, Intelligent Systems wasn't kidding when they said Small Tanks have high movement range: it's high by most standards.
-Include helicopters in the above. Of course, as you can see, planes have very high maximum range.

*GBW3:
-Yep. Plenty of direct-fire land or sea units still have a maximum range of no more than 7. But that's before transports is thrown into the equation. Foot soldiers can use them to have maximum ranges that would make the Fire Emblem series' 3-10 pests wince. Well, not quite; the drawback is that their limited weapon range limits where their final destination can be when attacking. And foot soldiers still have awful Movement Power that leads to primary transports ending up closer to the front lines.
-Range-fire units, by the way, don't even need transports to have a maximum range of higher than 7, being able to move and range fire on the same turn. Mercifully, however, it's fairly uncommon for them to be fast--and the Artillery S even has only 3 Movement Power. Of course, that means most of it is unhindered by terrain.
-Yeah. Transport Trucks and most cars have a maximum range of 8. Although all of them except the Battle Car (and Battle Car S but that's slower) are hindered by everything including Plains. The IFV S and Tank Destroyer S both have a maximum range of 8 too, but that stems from javelin fire.
-And yes, air units, especially planes, are faster. And not only that, the Fighter S has a maximum 5 Weapon Range. Using the Small Aircraft Carrier, it can fire from a whopping 24 spaces away. And even without the Aircraft Carriers, it still can hit from 18 spaces away. Yes, we can declare it broken. It's actually surprising that the AI can manage to make God awful usage of them.


If anybody has any comments or questions, please post away.
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PostSubject: Re: Hmm...unit ranges. (Long lists)   Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:39 pm

Now that I think about it, maybe indirects moving and firing in the same turn isn't so bad.

Oh yeah, remind me to buy more Battle Cars. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Hmm...unit ranges. (Long lists)   Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:32 am

Move + Range Fire would be a workable idea, but only with a heavy enough restriction since weapon range is unhindered by terrain or units, meaning range-fire units' final destination can end up still distant from the targeted unit. (Well, this can apply to any units that would have Second Move from FE. But they'd have to start close enough to target to get to a worthwhile distance to begin with. Plus if they have weapon range 1, they still have to move next to the target and probably would receive counterattack.) I don't think Range 2 fire is going to be a problem though, if done FE style.

Initiative system does bring up a good idea to hinder range-fire: further distance decreasing damage to the targeted unit. Attacking from a distance has its own weakness of being easier to dodge, and is useless to do when it can't deal damage whatsoever.

Oh, and the Battle Car probably wouldn't have the best range. I think the Combat Buggy would have better range; that doesn't have reduced Movement Power upon promotion, after all. Non-plane units have no more than 7 Movement Power in GBW3, probably to shake off space issues. (And by the way, I think GBW3's being 1MB is proof that there wasn't a lot invested into it, because that means it's smaller than the very first Dragon Warrior Monsters, a game released earlier as I would know because I had played that in my 9th grade math class; and I remember 9/11 (the event nobody let alone Hudson expected) happening to the point of shocking me during my 11th grade history class.) I wouldn't be surprised if the Combat Buggy had more than 7 Movement Power because of that. And don't count on the Battle Car having an easy time being cost effective. I guarantee it would be 7500G for something that would take 35-40% from Infantry. Even with the 75% to Infantry that Custom Wars would have considered AND Second Move, bad usage or spamming of it is a quick way into a disaster. (However, one or two used wisely would be able to turn the tides, especially against a tank spam, which is the second concern--first being infantry+indirect abuse, which as we know is not only overpowered but can make matches seriously dragged out beyond belief and therefore is downright annoying either way.)
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